New Temple System

I felt we ought to replace the old temple system as it was highly unrealistic, at least IMO. My new proposal would be to create four different types of "temples" representing the focus of government funding for religious purposes - the state religion (civilized only - 'factional religion' for tribals and nomads would be their replacement), the local religion (available to both), and the "mixed" religion (also available to both).

The cost for all religion buildings is universally:

Lv1 - 2 turns, 800 mnai
Lv2 - 4 turns, 1600 mnai
Lv3 - 8 turns, 3200 mnai
Lv4 - 10 turns, 6400 mnai

State Religion (Civilized Only)

Represents an attempt to 'convert' the locals to following the religion of the homeland, or an attempt to create a strong established religion that works closely with the government. In either case, it doesn't bring as much of a boost to stability as the other religious policy options, but decreases corruption and increases tax revenues; ideal for stable cities dealing with problems in those areas.

Lv1 - +5% Law
Lv2 - +10% Law, -5% Happiness, +2% Tax Income (cumulative)
Lv3 - +15% Law, -5% Happiness, +1% Tax Income (cumulative), +5% 'Urban' Conersion
Lv4 - +20% Law, -10% Happiness, +1% Tax Income (cumulative), +5% Urb. Conversion, +1 Exp to troops

Traditional/Faction Religion (Nomads and Tribals)

Same thing, but mainly for nomadic and tribal factions.

Lv1 - +5% Law
Lv2 - +10% Law, +1 Exp to troops
Lv3 - +15% Law, +2 Exp to troops, trade_income_bonus, +5% Tribal/Nomad Conversion
No LV4 factional religion available to barbs

Local Religion (BOTH)

This represents a policy of propping up the local religion, both the establishment and the temples, rituals, etc. It creates a very stable region, but cuts into tax revenues, and the long-term development isn't as beneficial.

Lv1 - +10% Happiness
Lv2 - +20% Happiness, -1% Tax Income (cumulative)
Lv3 - +30% Happiness, -1% Tax Income (cumulative)
Lv4 - +40% Happiness, -1% Tax Income (cumulative)

Mixed Religion (BOTH)

This represents a policy of tolerating and/or encouraging the mixing of both local traditions and those from the homeland, as well as from lands far and wide; hence, it is ideal for traders and attracting those fleeing religious persecution, thus encouraging long-term growth and eventually urbanization.

Lv1 - +5% Happiness
Lv2 - +5% Happiness, +5% Law, trade income bonus
LV3 - +10% Happiness, +5% Law, trade income bonus, +.5% pop growth
Lv4 - +15% Happiness, +5% Law, trade income bonus, +.5% pop growth, +5% Urban Conversion

Tanit, can you give the Old Hebrew names for Judaism? The local and mixed religions would be named in Aramaic, and would be consistent for both the Hasmoneans and the Nabatu.

I like old system. With all those Celtic Shrines with Taranis, Succelos and so on. I don't think polytheism differs a lot. And both Nomads and some civilized are polytheistic. According to Taylor, all polytheistic religions based on the metaphoric descriptions of the Nature processes. they do not care about soul saving and other stuff. There is no difference between worshiping Zeus or Jupiter. The difference would be between polytheism and Monotheism (Judaism and Zoroastrism), but it would work with old system as well.

I think, keeping old temple system would save the spirit of history connection (all thouse temple descriptions, while this new system is very standartized). people who like RP would be disappointed. And also we have a good ideas for Lugii temples.

Again, I love the old system for RP purposes but it really isn't that realistic. I guess state religions weren't really set up until later times though.

Though it definitely is true that Indo-European and some forms of Semitic polytheism are very interchangeable, even basic aspects of Semitic polytheism are very foreign to any such concepts in Hellenism - it's a lot more complicated and regional.

Let's see what Anubis thinks.

Actually i can't help you much here... Like Finn said, the old way was very nice for RP purposes, but i really like your suggestion as well. I'm really 50/50 on this to be honest, so perhaps someone alse should give their input.

You both made good arguments, so let's see what the other members will say. I will support either decision.

Hmm. I don't know how this would work for the Hashmonayim. So far as I know, the only temple that Jews of that time was the Second Temple. Anything else, they called "Synagogue" meaning "Gathering" or "Learning together" in Greek and that's how they viewed it. A gathering of the faithful, that learnt together. Nothing that could or would replace the worship at the Temple in Jerusalem. The Jews at that time, would visit the Temple in Jerusalem even 3 times per year, no matter how far they stayed, if they could afford it, with the Diaspora being a vital support for Israel, both financial and in terms of manpower and adopting new concepts. Remember, they were nearly half of the population at the Ptolemaic capital (300.000 out of 600.000) with vast numbers in every other Ptolemaic city. That meant a huge cash influx from those who would travel to Jerusalem up to 3 times per year for pilgrimage at the Temple.

I think that it was only after the destruction of the Temple that the Synagogues rose in significance and that was only because the temple was no more. I don't think anyone today can really understand the reverence that the Jews held for the worship at the Temple, since I think it is something very different to anything that exists today. That's why they wouldn't fight in Sabbaths, that's one of the reasons why they fought as hard as they did against such overwhelming odds. They did it, once, against the Seleucids. It was very different against the Romani, not to mention the fact that there was disunity to begin with.

I think it is safe to suggest that any conquest outside of the confines of the Judean state would try to convert pagans to Judaism, exactly like Edomites (Idoumaioi in Greek) were converted. I would expect that this might lead to some rebel sentiment among the local populace, not to mention the local pagan priests, especially those jackal worshipers in Egypt and elsewhere.

I am trying to finish the Hashmonayim preview so I 'd like some more time to elaborate on the various aspects of the temple system before giving my views.

-I 'd need to research more before giving my opinion-

That's why I proposed the new system - which indicates religious authority and government support for religious festivals, etc.

I get the four forms of religion.

However this will be represented by a building? Well i believe this could work fine with Hasmoneans or Pahlava.

However the rest of the factions are politeist right?
My only doubt should be abouth the Saka of Maues. However by contamination with lands conquered even if they are not politeist in the beginning they will turn politeist.

So what we do about the gods? The temples cease to exist? Or we still can build temples and could use one of the preview options to strengh our rule over the lands.

Also this bring me back to another situation: and Christianism? How should we represent that?

The new State Religion system would work for the Parthians, Nabatu, and Hasmoneans nicely; but it would just be done on existing temples. For the Nabatu and Hasmoneans, they would represent levels of religious establishment and/or cults.

The idea is interesting but like Lionheart said it could be problematic for Indo-Sakas at least.
Sakas had faith on Iranian gods and godess, but the people that lived in India had faith on Greek gods, Vishnouits pantheon, and some in Bouddha. Cut one could not be justifiable.
Same for Yuezhei when they'll become Kushans.

Could not be a way to make your system work only for Monotheism or Henotheism?

Just one idea about Hasm if we keep old system. They would have Temple only in Hierusalima, like EB one, that special building, and they would not have an pportunity to build temples higher then lvl 1 in other cities. It would represent, that Hasm had one temple, and other are sinagogue.

Lionheart, Christianism was not state religion till 301 AD, that is out of our time frames. It might be only represented as a trait.

Well using the ideia of Finn. Jerusalem will have a temple. Why not only make sinagoges in all lands that's the Hasmoneans will conquer?

FinnMacCumhail wrote:

Lionheart, Christianism was not state religion till 301 AD, that is out of our time frames. It might be only represented as a trait.

To be a cynical guy, Christianism wasn't more than a Judaism' heresy at once

True however it will change the world.

I still defend a scripted event that shows the emergence of Christ even if the roman rule palaetisna or not.

After that scripted event we could use christians to make some unrest in some provinces and that some characters only after this could gain the trait christian.

Christianity was not state religion till 4 th AD, and our mod ends in 2 AD. And all temples and so on in RTW represent state baking buildings.

After that scripted event we could use christians to make some unrest in some provinces and that some characters only after this could gain the trait cistian.

unrest? no, better giving "baby slayer" trait to the governor of Jurasalem in 1 year BC, or so. Were there Christian unrests? Christianity is peacefull religion, and first Christians were not agressive. and the trait might be given randomly. for example "worships Christ in secret" or smth like that.

BTW trait "Cristian" might be given after very-very-very significant victory. You know all those legends, when Generals sow a dream, if they would gain victory then they should turn into Christians. (like with Constantinus far later)

When i say unrest i have this is mind. If christianism spreads to romani areas we will have unrest because they are against the roman ways.
If christianism spreads in lands were jewish influence we have unrest due to that.
Do not forget that christianism was saw as a desviant way both for pagans and for orthodox jews.

About a general gained the trait christian after a great victory. I have some doubts that during our time-frame they will convert to christianism.

When i say unrest i have this is mind. If christianism spreads to romani areas we will have unrest because they are against the roman ways.
If christianism spreads in lands were jewish influence we have unrest due to that.
Do not forget that christianism was saw as a desviant way both for pagans and for orthodox jews.

then any religion can spread till roman borders and cause unrest. Coz it is game and everything is possible. Christians were peacefull, they were hiding in catacombs, they worshiped secretly. It can not cause unrest. They had no demonstrations, they didn't attacked Roman troops, and so on. They were victims. They were caught and took to Coliseum. But they didn't resist. So, there should be no unrest.

I would not be for unrests malus too. If we would want to implemant this thing, we should begin to analyse all of religion disagreement which could causing unrests. And that's huge.
Maybe after the release, but not now I think.

But religion was a factor of unrest. I think we should have this is mind when the game is close to be released.

DeathFinger wrote:
Could not be a way to make your system work only for Monotheism or Henotheism?

That's my proposal at this point.

So basicaly all other factions will have their temples like the original EB right?