New Stat System Post #1

Unit Numbers will be a very important part of the new stat system and I want everyone's input on this issue. I've implemented "alternative" numbers in my modifications of the EB stat system to good success and I intend to do so in EBNOM to help diversify the character of various nations' armies.

The suggested unit sizes presented are all for Large-size play, which will likely be the standard size.

Pantodapoi - 120 men



I dislike crummy levies like this but they are a necessary evil and make sense for rebellions, etc. 120 men obviously, no questions, as these are an urban levy (which is basically my criteria for a 120-man unit, an urban levy).

Gund-î Paltâ - 110 men



A levee en masse of eastern tribes will produce many men such as these; however as these tribes aren't necessarily that numerous it would be unreasonable to give this unit 120 men on Large size.

Persian Archers - 110 men



Not as important of a component of armies as in olden days, these men aren't as numerous as I have them in my EB MP EDU, but they are still numerous and will still be the most important members of any levy.

Shûbân-î Fradâkhshânâ - 80 men



A similar story with such slingers, but these men have much higher human capital than their javelin-throwing counterparts.

Thureophoroi - 100 men



The light ubiquitous troops of the Hellenistic period, Thureophoroi have decent training but aren't special. They are quite versatile and will be a numerous component of any Hellenistic army. Along with the Roman legionary they are a useful baseline for comparing other units to.

Imperial Auxiliary Spear Cohorts - 100 men



The number of auxiliaries outnumbered the legionaries during Imperial times, and even though these auxiliaries were divsersely equipped, standardized units such as these would likely be higher in numbers. 90 is reasonable though, as well.

Thureophoroi Bareis - 90 men



Wealthier and somewhat better trained than the regular Thureophoroi, it makes sense that these men are slightly fewer in number, but not by too much.

Cohors Reformata - 90 men



I feel 90 men is the right number because Roman legionaries were numerous, but didn't typically overwhelm their enemies in numbers - rather they were more numerous than the enemies who were equal to them in training and skill. For every armored Celtic noble, there would be several legionaries ready to fight him, and each Roman was more than a match for your average Gaul or German thanks to his superb equipment.

Thorakitai - 80 men



On the chain up from the Bareis, Thorakitai are well-disciplined and the equal of Romans in combat, despite their spears.

Spathaphoroi - 70 men

These men are recruited from limited population, the Galatians, and will be recruited from Kleroucheiai in-game or be available as mercenaries. Hence they have small numbers.

Qestûnarîn - 60 men



Crack Agema troops are one of the rarest and most expensive infantry types in the game; hence it makes sense for them to have very small numbers.

--- Cavalry ---

Parthian Horse Archers - 70 men



The small armies of horse archers represented in EB aren't really very satisfactory, at least to me - historically the Parthians were able to put roughly 40,000 of these guys into a campaign against Antony, if we can extrapolate from the ratios at Carrhae. These men weren't numerous at Carrhae but they didn't need to be in order to slaughter their opponents, as they had an effectively unlimited supply of arrows thanks to the planning of Surena. Instead of lots of arrows, our players will have lots of horsemen.

Equites Gallorum - 60 men



Most javelin cavalry units will have 60 men; heavier ones will have 50, such as the Alae Imperatoriae.

Aspet Hetselazor - 50 men



Most noble lancer units will have 50 men.

Noble Cataphracts - 50 men



Parthia had a larger population than Armenia and large nobility as well, though the number of very wealthy nobles who could afford such armor was very small. Still, they were clearly more numerous than their Armenian counterparts - a force of 10,000 Parthian horsemen had 1,000 cataphracts in it, while Tigran's grand army of 60 to 80,000 probably had a couple thousand cataphracts in it. Considering that Parthia was able to field at least 50,000 horsemen in times of need, it can be reasonably estimated that it could field about 5,000 cataphracts if it needed to; the later Sassanids were able to field 10,000 heavy Zhayedan (though these were not as armored as Parthian cataphracts) in addition to the very numerous Savaran and the elite Pushtigban troops.

Top-Line Elite Cataphracts - 40 men



Logically these guys would be one of the least numerous units, being extremely expensive and rare at the same time as they are either drawn from a specific class (Armenia) or the best of the nobility (Parthia)

I believe Roman legionaries should be 80, not 90. Because so called "people from one tent" contunbernia was consisting of 8 men, and 10 tents made a centuria, which equals one RTW unit.

Also primi ordinis which was double centuria equals 160 men. So, half of the double centuria equals 80.

I also think that 110 men archer unit is too big. But comparing to cav unit size (Parthian Horse Archers - 70 men) it seems OK, thought vs infantry it would be too overpowered. 110 archers vs 80 men Drapanai is unfair.

And finally 40 men catas worht nothing against let's say Imperial Auxiliary Spear Cohorts - 100 men, or Cohors Reformata - 90 men, the last one would slaughter half of them with 90 heavy pillas before charge.

120 man archers work out fine on EB MP EDU v3.0. And pila won't be insane like in RTW...

I remember over a dozen thousand non-cataphracts and 6,000 cataphracts in Tigran's army. The numbers between Parthia and Armenia, believe it or not, were comparable. This is mid-antiquity, not late antiquity. Parthia is not Eran/Iran. It is heavily decentralized. Parthia herself can't field as much as Armenia. She is lucky if she gets a few provinces to join her, particularly in the west, from Media, Elymais, and Persis (good luck there).

6,000 cataphracts? I'm fairly sure that's more than the whole of the Nakharar nobility at the time...did he field professionals? That's as many or more than the significantly wealthier Seleucid empire fielded at its height under Megas Antiochos.

gamegeek2 wrote:6,000 cataphracts? I'm fairly sure that's more than the whole of the Nakharar nobility at the time...did he field professionals? That's as many or more than the significantly wealthier Seleucid empire fielded at its height under Megas Antiochos.

Possible. But the Naxarars are at the very top. They're not the sole cataphracts. They bring the Bdaxsh along with them as retinue. It was a very decentralized and hierarchical society (Feudal is a term we want to avoid using here). Population may be an issue but 6,000 sounds at least potential if not actual if estimates are that the population of the empire in 80 BC was around 20 million.

6,000 isn't beyond reason, but the entire population of the Armenian kingdom at its height was as you say only about 25 million (after the conquest of Syria Koile and Cilicia), comparable to that of Parthia. The largest number of catas I recall Parthia summoning is 5,000, an estimate I made based on the 50,000 horsemen mustered against Antony (if I recall correctly). The whole kingdom probably wouldn't be able to field too much more than that.

First three units on the new EDU system:

type hellenistic infantry thureophoroi
dictionary hellenistic_infantry_thureophoroi ; Thureophoroi (no body armor)
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type General_1
soldier hellenistic_infantry_thureophoroi, 50, 0, 1
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 8, 12, javelin_l, 45, 4, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 7, 12, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.34
stat_sec_attr light_spear
stat_pri_armour 4, 13, 4, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 0, 0, -1, -2
stat_mental 10, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1095, 278, 70, 498, 1095
ownership

type hellenistic infantry thureophoroi bareis
dictionary hellenistic_infantry_thureophoroi_bareis; Thureophoroi Bareis (linothorax armour)
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type General_1
soldier hellenistic_infantry_thureophoroi_bareis, 45, 0, 1.1
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 8, 14, javelin_l, 45, 4, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 7, 14, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.34
stat_sec_attr light_spear
stat_pri_armour 8, 13, 4, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 0, 0, -1, -2
stat_mental 11, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1278, 320, 70, 498, 1278
ownership

type hellenistic infantry thorakitai
dictionary hellenistic_infantry_thorakitai; Thorakitai
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type General_1
soldier carthaginian_infantry_lybianspearmen_thorakitai_scortamavera, 40, 0, 1.2
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, square, shield_wall
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 9, 16, javelin_l, 40, 3, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 8, 16, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.34
stat_sec_attr light_spear
stat_pri_armour 11, 12, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 0, 0, -1, -2
stat_mental 12, disciplined, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1641, 410, 70, 498, 1641
ownership

I will need corrected descr_projectiles, coz last time there was smth wrong with velocity and heavy javelins range was too big for that velocity.

Also, I would need now entries for the new Armenia and Parthia units. I would add them into the game, and changing old ones, well, we can always do that. I want to include new units.

Yeah I'm fixing that.

I will post a lot of new units.

Progress for today: at least 20 new EDU entries.

About the same amount of progress yesterday as well.

Great pace

gg2, tell me please, do you have new EDU for the all units from alpha 0.3?

The Parthian Empire LOOKED big....in reality it was NOT a centralised state unlike Armenia. Due to its sheer size Parthia should have slightly more catas than Armenia and a larger numerical advantage in light cavalry/HAs but if we followed the population ratio based on know Armenian figures we would end up having a Parthian army so big that the Romans would never have been able to trounce them as they did in mid-antiquity.

I'm not sure which units were in Alpha v0.3, could you send me the old alpha 0.3 EDU I made so I can restat them?

The Parthians have two cataphract lancer units to Armenia's one, and the second one is a cheaper unit with slightly higher numbers.

This is 0.3 EDU with some new additions such as some Gandharan units, Armenians, Parthians, they don't present in your EDU and DMB, you should get rid of them to run this EDU. Or you can restat all and upload for me.

Tell me please, who has got v.0.3? I must to know should I upload 0.4 as a patch (several mb) or the whole folder (about 1 GB)?

[https://rapidshare.com/files/3352808136/export_descr_unit.txt]

I don't have it. Also apologies but please focus on making models. I will send you factions' full rosters one at a time.

Dacian units: http://www.mediafire.com/?o7gqe9yxiireiev

Lugian and Sweboz: http://www.mediafire.com/?43bo462nf4gaa1f

Please tell me if I'm missing something.

I will have the Numidians, Armenians, and Parthians tomorrow.

Great!

do you also have \bi\EBNOM\data\text\export_units.txt? coz I have half of it, I didn't manage to download your summer export_units.txt edition. and this is very unconvinient when 2/3 units don't have unit cards

Send me what you have, I'll code all of export_units as soon as I'm done with the unit stats.

Also, forgot this one:

type germanic infantry jugunthiz
dictionary germanic_infantry_jugunthiz ; Jugunþiz (Germanic Skirmishers) (t=-2)
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type General_1
soldier germanic_infantry_swainoz_imannae, 100, 0, 1
officer ebofficer_germanic_standardbearer
mount_effect elephant -2, horse -2
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, very_hardy
formation 1.2, 2, 2.4, 4, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 9, 6, javelin_m, 49.5, 5, thrown, archery, piercing, spear, 10 , 1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 6, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.32
stat_sec_attr light_spear
stat_pri_armour 1, 12, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 0, 0, 1, -1
stat_mental 9, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 884, 221, 50, 70, 884
ownership alemanni, burgundii

EDIT: And this one:

type germanic missile slingers
dictionary germanic_missile_slingers ; Komatai Sphendonetai (t=-4)
category infantry
class missile
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier dacian_missile_komatai_sphendonitai_iaosatae, 40, 0, 0.4
mount_effect chariot +2, horse -4, elephant +1
attributes sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hide_long_grass, can_sap, very_hardy
formation 1.6, 2, 3.2, 4, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 2, 0, stone_m, 200, 24, missile, archery, piercing, none, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 5, 0, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 1, 6, 1, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 1
stat_ground 0, 0, 1, -1
stat_mental 4, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 616, 154, 40, 60, 616
ownership vandals

Sarmatians should be lombardi not lombardii

I also need descr_projectile_new.txt with all your new entries for javelins, arrows and other missiles. Without it I have CTD everytime, all my efforts to fix that caused no result.

There were no Tarabostes entry, there was this:

what does it mean? is it tarabostes or brunikai?


type germanic cavalry bruninkai
dictionary germanic_cavalry_bruninkai ; Tarabostes (Dacian Heavy Cavalry) (t=3)
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type General_1
soldier dacian_cavalry_beltistai_tarabostes, 25, 0, 1
mount heavy horse
mount_effect elephant -1, chariot +2
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy
formation 1.5, 4, 3, 6, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 6, 36, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.4
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 12, 15, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.2
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 10, 11, 3, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground 0, 0, -4, -2
stat_mental 13, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 2597, 670, 80, 120, 2597
ownership burgundii

Oh that's the Tarabostes.

descr_projectile: http://www.mediafire.com/?iebhb22v62odq4s

Thanks alot.

Who are the germanic infantry plegodai?

Drugenai na Konije sounds very weird. Drugena is already plural. Adding plural ending -i is the same as to say Solduroioi, or Triariioi. "na Konje" is a singular form of the word Kon' in the Prepositional Grammatical case. Just like twice plural unit rides on the one horse. Konnitza (cavalry) sounds much better, though, i don't know if such word existed 2000 years ago.

Why germanic_cavalry_athalai ; Reiðanez Aþalai belong to burgundii but not to sweboz who has BG on the same DMB model?