Starting Positions

Starting Positions

Though there will be mapping changes, we can do some starting positions I think.

Hayk (Armenia) - Armavir (Hayk), Tigranakert (???), Karkathiokerta (Sophene), Samosata (Kommagene), Edessa (Osrhoene), Antiocheia (Syria), Karin (Pokr Hayk) - 7 Provinces.

Armenia should start with its eye on Parthia, as it is allied with Pontos.

Pontos - Sinope (Paphlagonia), Amaseia (Kappadokia Pontika), Ankyra (Galatia), Pantikapaion (Bosporion Tyrraniensis), Chersonesos (Chersonesos Taurike), Kotais (Egrisi), Odessos (Moesia Inferior), Trapezous (Pontos Paralios) - 8 provinces

Pontos has a very strong starting position, albeit a bit scattered. It has a strong hold on the Black Sea, and makes great profits from trade there.

In Anatolia, the Romans control Pergamon (Mysia), Nikomedia (Bithynia),

Numidia starting positions should be Cirta and Hippo Regius.

Nabatu - Hegra (Lihyan), Bostra (Hauran), Damaskos (Syria Koile), Petra (Nabataia)

The Nabatu should start with a good stack in the Negev area, as that would be their priority at the time, to regain control of the Incense Route.

Hashmonayim - Yerushalayim (Isra'el), Gaza (Gaza), Oboda (Negeb)

Not sure if they get Sidon or not. They also have a big stack in the Negev area (called Negeb province to represent the pronunciation of the time in Aramaic, the primary language of the area), and perhaps right next to the Nabataean one. The Hasmoneans would win on autoresolve, since they have the FL as a general...

Perhaps something like this:

Nabatu - 1x Nabatu Hetairoi, 2x Thureophoroi, 1x North Arabian Thureophoroi, 2x Idumaean Infantry, 1x Arabian Light Cav, 1x Arabian Noble Lancers, 1x Arabian Slingers, 1x Hippotoxotai

Hasmoneans - Alexandros Iannaios (FL), 2x Light Thureophoroi, 2x Thureophoroi, 1x Machairophoroi, 1x Lonchophoroi, 1x Spathaphoroi, 1x Arabian Slingers, 1x Tarantinoi

Do you guys think there should be Galatikoi Kleruchoi mercs in the area?

The armies are fine. However i believe that the hasmoneans also need al least one unit of cavalry.

About the mercs is possible but only in the hasmonean army. Since like is talked in tread this king is famous for the use of mercenary troops and disliked the jewish soldiers.

But i still say that we need a essenian unit to represent a more orthodox faction of judaism. Also the Qumran appears to be a sort of militar rule for a warlike sect. So one unit like that should exist in the hasmonean roster.

Agree 100% on Rome, Nabatu, Hasmoneans, but does Armenia get Atropatane at this point or not? Aslo, i'm 99% that Olbia was under Pontus.

The Sertoriani will start with Lacobriga and Oxtraca. 2 great battles were won by the Sertoriani in 80 BC. We will decide if we depict their aftermath (The armies of Rome are broken in Hispania, the cities offer their allegiance to Sertorius, Mettellus is sent with a new one), or we depict them before the 2 battles. Possibly with large stacks facing each other.

Also, gg2, could you post the Nabatu units ATB made that we can use?

Lionheart wrote:The armies are fine. However i believe that the hasmoneans also need al least one unit of cavalry.

About the mercs is possible but only in the hasmonean army. Since like is talked in tread this king is famous for the use of mercenary troops and disliked the jewish soldiers.

But i still say that we need a essenian unit to represent a more orthodox faction of judaism. Also the Qumran appears to be a sort of militar rule for a warlike sect. So one unit like that should exist in the hasmonean roster.

OK, write up an essenian thread in the units section.

We already extracted many of those - though I'll see what I can dig up.

Anubis88 wrote:Agree 100% on Rome, Nabatu, Hasmoneans, but does Armenia get Atropatane at this point or not? Aslo, i'm 99% that Olbia was under Pontus.

The Sertoriani will start with Lacobriga and Oxtraca. 2 great battles were won by the Sertoriani in 80 BC. We will decide if we depict their aftermath (The armies of Rome are broken in Hispania, the cities offer their allegiance to Sertorius, Mettellus is sent with a new one), or we depict them before the 2 battles. Possibly with large stacks facing each other.

Also, gg2, could you post the Nabatu units ATB made that we can use?

About Olbia in Ukraine i retrieve this from Wikipedia that resumes the status of Olbia.

The Greek colony, highly important commercially, endured for a millennium. During the 5th century BCE, when the colony was visited by Herodotus, it minted distinctive cast bronze money in the shape of leaping dolphins.[3] Unusual in shape considering the round coins common in the Greek world, this form of money is said to have originated from sacrificial tokens used in the Temple of Apollo.

Martin Litchfield West speculates that early Greek religion, especially the Orphic Mysteries, was heavily influenced by Central Asian shamanistic practices. A large number of Orphic graffiti unearthed in Olbia seems to testify that the colony was one major point of contact.[4]

After the town adopted a democratic constitution, its relations with Miletus were regulated by a treaty, which allowed both states to coordinate their operations against Alexander's general Zopyrion in the 4th century BC. By the end of the 3rd century, the town declined economically[5] and accepted the overlordship of King Skilurus of Scythia. It flourished under Mithridates Eupator but was sacked by the Getae under Burebista, a catastrophe which brought Olbia's economic prominence to an abrupt end.

Having lost two thirds of its settled area, Olbia was restored by the Romans, albeit on a small scale and with a large admixture of barbarian population. Dio of Prusa visited the town and described it in his Borysthenic Discourse (the town was often called Borysthenes, after the river). The settlement, incorporated into the province of Lower Moesia, was eventually abandoned in the 4th century AD, when it was burnt at least twice in the course of the so-called Gothic (or Scythian) wars.

Here about starting positions of Maues and Kushans, and their friendly neighbourhood



Maues' Indo-Saka kingdom is in red. He has only one province because he's at the beginning of his Indian rule, but he should be in a strong position.

Next to him lay several Indo-Greek kingdoms (in light blue), or better speaking, one Indo-Greek kingdoms and 2 usurpers it seems. Peucolaos is to date around 80 BC, with rare coins minted in Peucolaotis and Taxila. Checking his name, he probably was an usurper, maybe an Indo-Greek who rebelled against Maues the Saka, but lasted not long. He should be easy to conquer. Demetrios III is probably of the same kind of king, but Maues probably never ruled on the Paropamisadai (and Demetrios III fell to another Saka, maybe Azes). Better force than Peucolaos so, but not too much. Hermaios II should have better force than the other Indo-Greek kings, but nothing like his Saka neighbours.

Orange are Saka areas. Drangiane/Sakastan must be strong. They embarassed the Parthian kingdoms several times, had invaded Paropamisadai some years after 80 BC etc... Dunno about Gedrosia except that it was under some Saka chieftians rule. On the 3 indian provinces under Saka rule (note: I forget to draw the Patalene one...): Here Sakas have invaded those provinces, and are probably ruling them but not in a strong position, probably dealing with Indian and Greek local powers (especially traders).

In Blue we have the Guishuang xihou. As we dunno what we should about the possibility of a King of the Yuezhei somewhere, we will make them independant. They should be in a strong position too, but not able to take Baktria/Tokharestan

In light green are the Yuezhei provinces. Baktria is crowded by xihou. I've my own ideas on how to represent them and make the Koushan reform process interesting, but for now I'll just say that this area should be really warlike. Sogdiana is where the Yuezhei royal court was placed ( no one seems to agree where, so we'll let Marakanda as town). Strong too so, but on the decline.

Dayun is part of Kangju realm (Chach and Dayuan), don't mess with it.

On Dahyu Aovamarga, I dunno for now. Note that all the names and probably the locations of nomadic provinces will be changed, due to their migrations.

Any comments? :p

So basically the factions that are played and Saka and Yuezhei all the others are eleutheroi right?

Yeah, playable factions are the brand new Indo-Saka kingdom of Maues (in red), and the Guishuang xihou (later Kushans) in deep-blue.

Hayk'

Armenie (Armavir, Artashat)
Georgie (Iberie) (Mtskheta)
Atropatene
Yervandashat
Kars
Erzurum (Karin)
Arshamshat
Tigranakert
Shamshat
Cilicie (Adana, Tarsos)
Syrie (Antioche, Aleppo, Palmyre)
Nisibis
Phenicie/Liban (Beyrouth)

From Mer Mediterranee (in Syrie) to Mer Caspienne (in Atropatene). Does not touch Mer Noire.

I hope y'all know enough French to figure that out. These correspond some to old names, some to modern names. I don't know what provinces are on the map (i.e. what these names correspond with), and certainly there can't be all these towns, big or small, on the map. So whoever knows the campaign map should figure out what correspond with what. Use this French map for a better understanding. The map is (thankfully enough) of Tigran's empire at precisely 80 BC.

Nevermind, I won't be able to upload it for a few minutes. Be right back!

EDIT: Here is the link: DOWNLOAD MAP OF ARMENIA, 80 BC

Please right-click and choose Save Link As so that you can download this image. It is about 1 MB, so streaming it would be unwise.

Again i'm really impressed, DeathFinger... Without you we would never been able to represent such a complex situation in the east... If i only remember how much trouble i had reconstructing the state of Sertorius, i can't imagine how much harder this must've been.

But who is Maues actually? Is he a Saka king? And how much did his kingdom consist at the height of his power? Also, how will we call his faction? The Kingdom of Maues? Or something that could last longer? Some sort of Indo-Saka or sth?... Thanks

The Saka Kingdom of Maues does not sound very bad i believe. Or better the Saka Horde.

Also a player that starts with Maues will begun conquerring the remaining Saka kingdoms and the Indo-Greek kings and expand is power in the far-east. A player that is capable to do that will have a great advantage to start pushing the borders into the eastern provinces of the Parthia empire and perhaps subdue the Yuezhei.

Or in the contrary also works fine the Yuezhei could do the same. Also in the beginning the two powers should be in conflict i believe.

I'm for The Saka Kingdom of Maues, because "The Saka Horde" would mean there isn't other one, and in fact this kingdom is probably the less nomadic of all the Saka ones at this time :p

Maues ruled on the bribes of Indo-Greek kingdoms, so on a majority of Indians, with Sakas previously nomads and some already hellenized, and some previously Greek elits. Melting pot eh :p. You're right Lionheart, Maues will probably first subdue his neighbouring Indo-Greek kings, and then go to South of India (even if he can do the second one at first). We would want to make the conflict between Guishuang and Maues been reported later, because they weren't really neighbours and Maues kingdom probably wasn't able to beat some Yuezhei at this time. But yeah, both should be at war at the beginning.

At the height of his power, Maues ruled probably on all the Indian provinces of EBlate map, but not on the Paropamisadai.

Yep probably.

So the faction name will be the Saka Kingdom of Maues. More opinions are needed.

I'm just wondering how Kingdom of Maues will fit, if this kingdom remains till 100 AD for example, once Maues is long gone

That simply depends of the player i believe. If you fortify your position the kingdom will survive. If not a Parthian or even a player with the Yuezhei could put a end to the kingdom.

Also the name could remain as a homage to is founder. Is this strange?

Perhaps Maues has some dynastic name that could be used?

Not really. From what i know. But the name sugested could remain. It's not the first time that a founder gives the name to is own country.

The problem is easy to understand: we call them Indo-Saka, just because we dunno how they called themselves. So is it for Maues. I'm of those who think his kingdom lasted not after his death. We have an Artemidoros "son of Maues" on his coin, but really rare specimens. And Azes' coins (and other later Sakas) have little links to those of Maues. He probably is a Black Sworm :p.

About the dates: c.80 BC - 70/60 BC. It's not long eh. But we have coins of Telephos and Nikias Indo-Greek kings with odd style for Indo-Greeks (soldiers with pointed-cap, so Saka eh), so probably allies, or co-opted kings. All-in-all, Indo-Saka kingdoms never lasted long before Western Kshatrapas of Ist AD, but Maues probably had some weight at his time, and made a "case law" for Saka rule in India

And on the dynastic name: nothing. If only... it could help a lot to understand from where he came. So maybe a greek translation of Kingdom of Maues. Will do this.

I think we've now decided on Yuezhi and Indo-Saka, since the Kushans evolved out of the Yuezhi.

We can cut Gava-Saka and Gava-Alanna, those areas really aren't relevant to the game - whereas we can flesh out this very important area.

The Nabataeans didn't lose Damascus until 72 BCE. Gaza had been taken by Alexander Jannaeus.

Sertoriani Scalabis and Lacobriga... You can update the first post gg2 with the info in this thread and from the various others threads concerned with this.